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Scott
Turow
The
best-selling author of Presumed Innocent and,
most recently, Personal Injuries, has deftly balanced
a writing career and legal work. Here he talks kids
A
1975 graduate of Harvard Law School, Turow was a lead prosecutor in
several high-profile Chicago trials during the 1980's. Dadmag sat
down with the author in the Chicago office of Sonnenschein, Nath &
Rosenthal, where he practices law. Turow lives in suburban Chicago
with his wife Annette and their teenaged children. We imagined that
could present a challenge to a man who made a career of prosecuting
errant behavior.
Dadmag:
What kind of values do you try to instill in your kids?
Turow:
Like all parents of teenagers, I've been arguing with them, especially
with my 17 year old. In a fit of pique, I told him I'd be really
mad at him if he grew up to be an asshole, which probably defines
my values as well as anything. Naturally I'd like them to be decent
human beings, respectful of other persons and also respectful
of themselves, capable of being happy. I think they've been raised
in a house where concern about other human beings has been pretty
clear.
Dadmag:
What do you do about outside influences? Are there any
dangers lurking at school, at parties or on tv?
Turow:
My principal concern about "outside influences" is the
television set. I'm also really concerned with my 13 year old
about the music she listens to. I have said that to her a number
of times when I listen to her favorite radio station, which shall
go nameless. It pushes the celebration of diversity a little further
than I care to take it, to have rap music broadcast anywhere,
especially within the earshot of young women. I turned to her
and said how can you listen to this stuff, it's so degrading to
women. Listen about the way they're talking about women. I said
you don't want anybody to ever talk about you that way or think
about you that way, and certainly not to put it on the radio.
She says I don't listen to the words. I think as a parent, I've
been relatively unprudish, but I am concerned especially about
the kinds of messages that get sent to young people, especially
her age. For young women it is an unbelievably confusing world.
I don't think anybody's going to turn my children into racists
by what they see on TV, but sexuality is a subject where the boundaries--between
parent and child, largely because of our incest taboos-are firm.
That's an area where outside influence can be greatest.
As far as drugs, I've got the usual problem that people my age
have, which is that there was a time in my life when I didn't
behave in an exemplary way. My kids know that, and I try to explain
to them that we really did not recognize how hazardous a lot of
this activity was. If I had that to do over again, I probably
would follow Dr. Drew's advice and just try to avoid saying anything.
Dadmag:
Plus the drugs can be a lot more dangerous now.
Turow:
I have at least one close friend who really burned his brains
out on LSD and I mean literally lost a highly functioning intellect
to drugs, and I had my own bad drug experiences.
Dadmag:
But at least we were relative adults.
Turow:
I was a hell of a lot older then. The 13 year old, I don't worry
about. I don't think she's interested in that. The 17 year old
is in a suburban high school where the drug and alcohol culture
is frankly, frightening. It's epidemic. I don't think the school
does enough to combat it, nor as a community of parents have we
done enough to combat it. One of the ways the kids have beaten
us by the way, is that they are relatively responsible about not
driving. That takes away the main argument that you can endanger
other human beings. Instead they're just imperiling themselves,
which is of course, the God given right of teenagers always.
Dadmag:
But there's been so much written recently about the dangers of
ecstasy and other club drugs that are passed off as ecstasy. When
you're dealing with stuff in a pill in large quantities, you don't
know where it came from or what's in it.
Turow:
It does scare me. I mean the pharmacist tells you to throw away
anything on your shelf that's over a year old and you got it from
him. Can you imagine just taking pills that somebody hands you
at a party. There's no reasoning with youth.
Dadmag:
When you talked about the incest taboo, you said it put a wall
between you and your children. What did you mean by that?
Turow:
There's a limited amount I want to know about my kids sex
lives, and I certainly don't want to instruct them about their
sexuality. I'm not interested in giving them pointers. That means
that I don't want to talk to my oldest child about who she has
or hasn't slept with and it makes it hard, therefore, to influence
their thinking about sexuality. I mean when you have this weird
stuff that just seeps out of a culture, suggesting that everybody
ought to be fucking at any age, and that it's a form of entertainment
like mall shopping, it's frightening. It's really frightening.
I don't think the magic or the mystery will be lost, but I think
it's a far more powerful experience than that, and I don't think
kids understand that.
Dadmag:
Sexuality can be taken so causally. Is there a danger in its being
downgraded?
Turow:
Absolutely. And the suggestion on television that sex is
entertainment is something that really bothers me.
Dadmag:
Do you think the government or the state or federal has
any obligation to do anything in these areas?
Turow:
No, I don't. If I'm afraid to try to regulate my children in this
area, I certainly don't want the federal government doing it.
I mean it does bother me, it really does. Next to the rap music,
the junkie sitcoms where there are constant sexual innuendoes,
bother me. There are television shows where I think it's appropriate
like Friends. Friends is about young single people who are clearly
concerned about issues of mating and that's fine. Those are appropriate
jokes, and if I don't want my kids watching that, then I would
be unsuccessful, but I have ways of trying to regulate it. At
the other extreme, there was Tim Allen's show which I thought
avoided most of this, and it didn't get cheap laughs with cheap
tricks. There's just a whole lot of stuff in between.
Dadmag:
What kind of discipline do you believe in at home?
Turow:
I truly can count on one hand the number of times that we hit
any of the three. Obviously our son got it a little more often
than the girls, because anybody who has raised little boys know
that they bounce off the walls. I wasn't spanked very often either.
I guess with young children who are unreasoning, I've seen places
for it. They can just make you insane and more important, they
can be insane, but generally speaking, I think it's a lousy idea.
As a lawyer it's one of the things that has bothered me over the
years doing pro bono work. You're dealing with a young person
who is accused of a crime of violence and the very well meaning
relatives will show up in court--they come with their babies--and
the next thing you know somebody's making noise and wham, caught
it right across the face and the kid's screaming and it's bedlam
in the corridor. More than that you're saying this is not a good
example, I can see how this happened.
Dadmag:
Kind of a cultural divide.
Turow:
Yes, there's a huge cultural divide, often in areas like guns,
tobacco or spanking your children.
Dadmag:
Where do you stand on guns?
Turow:
I have absolutely no use for them. I mean I have a firearm owners
card, because I inherited some guns from my father, but the town
I live in banned the possession of hand guns and God bless them
for that, they're right. I do not see any use for hand guns except
killing other people. For those people who think that Freud was
full of it, I suggest they consider the gun debate in this country,
then ask yourself why people get so volcanic about having their
gun taken away. It's just -- I don't have that kind of attachment.
Dadmag:
As a parent, what do you do if your kids go play or hang out at
another house where you know there are guns? Do you ask ahead
of time?
Turow:
We were just talking about this. Certainly if I came into
the house and saw a gun in the house, I would be concerned as
a parent, but I don't think I'd intrude on another parent by asking
do you have guns in this house. We had a friend for years who
was in law enforcement and a very dear friend who would come into
the house armed, and my wife Annette would literally make him
take off his gun and put it on top of the refrigerator.
Dadmag:
But that's in your house.
Turow:
Yes. My kids went there to play and there were plenty of guns
in that house. I assume that any person who I'm going to trust
enough to let my child in their house is not going to have guns
accessible. I would regard that as a profound offense.
Dadmag:
On the subject of government intrusion, what did you think
of the ruling that limited the rights of grandparents to visit.
Turow:
I have to say that I was happy to see the Supreme Court of the
United States say forthrightly that parents have the right to
determine what happens to their children. Obviously spousal and
child abuse need to be recognized by the courts. But assuming
that a parent is not violating those basic bounds of decency,
I think people have a right to bring up their children.
Dadmag:
You're a very successful lawyer and writer. Have you steered
your children in any particular career direction?
Turow:
I got a lot of pretty intrusive career advice from my parents.
My father was a doctor and my parents desperately wanted me to
be a doctor, and so I've tried to be hands off. Now, with my youngest,
of course, I found that I do have my limits. She is a child after
my own heart in the sense that for much of my time in school I
hated it. I can remember being a sophomore in high school and
looking at the clock, watching it get to 12:01 on Wednesday, and
thinking it's half over. I actually had a pretty good time my
junior and senior year, but sophomore year was just unbearable.
Anyway, my child does not like school and I did say to her --you
have nine more years of it, period, this is not open to debate.
You are going to college, period. Beyond demanding that they get
an education, I have to let them find their way. I hope that they
will enjoy getting out of bed in the morning to do what they have
to do as much as I do. That would be a real blessing for all of
us.
Dadmag:
It's one of the delights of young children, isn't it? A three-year
old just can't wait to start the day.
Turow:
You don't want to ever lose that. I read an article in the New
York Times in which somebody defines the term, deep play. I found
that really striking, because both of the things that I do are
forms of deep play, both practicing law and writing. They engage
me that way. I think play is an important part of life and I hope
my children find their own forms of deep play. I think they're
going to.
Dadmag:
As a parent and with the hindsight of experience, would you do
anything differently?
Turow:
We're in a suburb that is not as diverse as I would like
and this was a fairly significant decision. I don't know how I
feel about it at this juncture. My son came up to me recently
and said, Do you know I don't know any black people well? Which
by the way is not something his little sister would say. By whatever
bit of luck, she's managed to have a number of close friends of
color. Anyway, I said yeah, I do know that, and I said it bothers
me. He said well what are you going to do about it? I said I'm
not going to do anything about it. I suggest that you look carefully
at where you go to college and see the way people of different
colors deal with each other, because maybe you'll have a chance
there. So that's one issue. Then there are personal limitations,
especially when somebody's got as much to do as I do. It's the
hazard of being a writer, but I live inside my head a lot, and
all three of my children learned to scream at me to get my attention.
Now, there is a piece of me that is very regretful that they had
to scream. There is also a piece of me that is very proud that
they felt free to do it. Because obviously the response was seldom
to scream back, but rather to say okay, you guys have a point
here, there must be something you need from me, what can I give
you? I have plenty of character failings that have manifested
themselves in the way I parented, but I really tried hard. I mean
I tried really hard and I think my kids know that.
Dadmag:
In juggling careers you've spent a lot of time doing your work.
Do you feel you put in enough time with your children?
Turow:
I actually think that being able to practice law part time
was an extraordinary blessing for my family. Several years ago
I had a study at home and that was where I was writing. Eventually
because I had people working for me, I couldn't keep doing this
at home. Now the place that I work is nearby and it's easily accessible
to the kids. They can find me in a minute, but they were upset
that I was going to move out of the house to work and I took that
as a relatively good sign. I think I've probably had more time
with my kids than many working parents get, and especially working
fathers. By the same token, my years as a trial lawyer were very
hard. I remember when our son was about six months old I was on
trial. I had gone on trial when he was about a month old and I
had been on trial ever since, and finally Annette said the children
have not seen you, they have to see you, when can they see you?
So she called a family meeting for 5:30 in the morning and we
literally were all up together at 5:30 in the morning. She put
the baby down on the floor and I said my God, he's sitting up.
I thought that was the pits, I really did. To be away so much
that you miss that much. I really think it was one of the great
ancillary benefits of my literary success, to be able to be around
more. Now paying attention, of course, is a different thing.
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